The Purpose of Religion

[Twinkle]

See....

If people are just making up stuff and it makes them feel good and gives them what they need...I'm all for it.

The problem comes in when people get pissy because they just don't like being told that they're making shit up...yet that's what it boils down to in most religions. For some reason there has to be some sort of esoteric truth behind it, that for the most part is either delusion or just plain old wishful thinking.

And as long as one is being honest about that, who gives a flip?

If one is secure with what they believe and why they believe it, it wouldn't matter what anyone said about it, anyway.

[Solya]

Originally Posted by memnoch

Ignorance by definition is lack of knowledge, if you need an explanation for something you do not have knowledge of it. Needing religion to explain something you don't understand is making up an answer because you are ignorant on the subject. I regularly use this saying so get used to it, words have a definition for a reason, use the word as it is meant, and in doing so you will see I am correct.

Only if you stop at the answer religion gives you, which is what most people tend to do. I feel more comfortable adapting a temporary answer and then expanding my knowledge on the subject. I want to understand why the answers religions give to the big and small questions are the way they are. Why there is the concept of a godform, and an afterlife concept, and a concept of a motivation behind things like suffering.. why we are, as humans, not inherently satisfied by 'it is the way it is' and seek to explain things in ways that make sense to us. Religion essentially is a different way of giving meaning to this. The problem with religion is that it is often not rational enough to back all of its claims up, which then leads to only temporary answers and the idea of needing faith to make sense of it. Yes, there is ignorance in religion. There is also ignorance in atheism. There is ignorance in any viewpoint that doesn't allow change to occur.

As for motivation you are only furthering my point, they need motivation that non religious people don't need.

Everybody, non-religious or religious, needs an internal and external motivation to make something out of themselves and their lives. The way in which they achieve this is just different. Reliance on a godform or religion to make your life better while you don't put the work in yourself doesn't get you anywhere. Just like reliance on purely and only yourself can close you off to what's going on around you and can turn you further and further inward. Everyone, be they religious or non-religious, needs to find that happy medium between the two types of motivation.

[memnoch]

Originally Posted by Solya

Only if you stop at the answer religion gives you, which is what most people tend to do. I feel more comfortable adapting a temporary answer and then expanding my knowledge on the subject. I want to understand why the answers religions give to the big and small questions are the way they are. Why there is the concept of a godform, and an afterlife concept, and a concept of a motivation behind things like suffering.. why we are, as humans, not inherently satisfied by 'it is the way it is' and seek to explain things in ways that make sense to us. Religion essentially is a different way of giving meaning to this. The problem with religion is that it is often not rational enough to back all of its claims up, which then leads to only temporary answers and the idea of needing faith to make sense of it. Yes, there is ignorance in religion. There is also ignorance in atheism. There is ignorance in any viewpoint that doesn't allow change to occur.



Everybody, non-religious or religious, needs an internal and external motivation to make something out of themselves and their lives. The way in which they achieve this is just different. Reliance on a godform or religion to make your life better while you don't put the work in yourself doesn't get you anywhere. Just like reliance on purely and only yourself can close you off to what's going on around you and can turn you further and further inward. Everyone, be they religious or non-religious, needs to find that happy medium between the two types of motivation.

But it is silly to put in an answer that you know is false while you are searching. It is one thing to say I don't know, or I don't know, but I know it isn't some invisable all powerful genie, but I want to find answers. It is another to claim that until you find answers you will stick with fairy tales because they make you feel good. It is like cooking, and you are looking for the right ingredient...you know you don't want hemlock in there, but because you don't know what you want you put hemlock in hoping it will fulfill you while you search...instead you should say I know what it isn't and go from there.

Sure, people need all sorts of motivation, both internal and external, but we are back to the little engine that could...sure it provides motivation, but do we want to spend our time devoted to it?

[Solya]

I don't know that it is false. I assume very basic things and don't go crazy on the fairytales. "I don't know" is my starting point but then comes the "but I believe it could be this" and that's where I go from. I expand my knowledge based on random notions of belief, which I find much easier to work with than the idea of having to disprove everything. I cannot find all answers to everything, but faith has gotten me places in life that I cannot fully comprehend but admire for the chances they present to me as a person. Doesn't mean I'm gonna go put hemlock in my brew if I know it's not going to be a part of it. Means I'm going to go off on the 'might be rosemary'-thought and explore things that way.

I devote my time to the belief that we have to make the most out of our lives and that we are all capable of making miracles happen. I believe in the inherent qualities of the human race and I am thankful to be in human form. I devote my time to making this world the best it can be for everybody. This means that I draw at least a portion of my strength from a 'divine calling' that occurred years and years ago when I was a child, but it does not mean I place my whole life in the hands of a godforce I cannot fully comprehend.

[memnoch]

Originally Posted by Solya

I don't know that it is false. I assume very basic things and don't go crazy on the fairytales. "I don't know" is my starting point but then comes the "but I believe it could be this" and that's where I go from. I expand my knowledge based on random notions of belief, which I find much easier to work with than the idea of having to disprove everything. I cannot find all answers to everything, but faith has gotten me places in life that I cannot fully comprehend but admire for the chances they present to me as a person. Doesn't mean I'm gonna go put hemlock in my brew if I know it's not going to be a part of it. Means I'm going to go off on the 'might be rosemary'-thought and explore things that way.

I devote my time to the belief that we have to make the most out of our lives and that we are all capable of making miracles happen. I believe in the inherent qualities of the human race and I am thankful to be in human form. I devote my time to making this world the best it can be for everybody. This means that I draw at least a portion of my strength from a 'divine calling' that occurred years and years ago when I was a child, but it does not mean I place my whole life in the hands of a godforce I cannot fully comprehend.

I should have been clear that I was going for a general "you"...as in anyone with an ounce of common sense and a 3rd grade science education understands there are no invisable all powerful genies in the sky. They also understand that if you wish (or pray) in one hand and shit in the other you will fill your hand full of poo much quicker. Lastly they understand the basic principles of science that lighting a candle, coming up with a rhyme, and twitching your nose won't accomplish anything...yet these are the things religion is based off of.

[Solya]

Originally Posted by memnoch

I should have been clear that I was going for a general "you"...

Don't worry. I understood just fine. I speak out of my own personal opinions, seeing as you are quoting my posts, and that's why the last post was filled with I-ness.

as in anyone with an ounce of common sense and a 3rd grade science education understands there are no invisable all powerful genies in the sky.They also understand that if you wish (or pray) in one hand and shit in the other you will fill your hand full of poo much quicker. Lastly they understand the basic principles of science that lighting a candle, coming up with a rhyme, and twitching your nose won't accomplish anything...yet these are the things religion is based off of.

As a panentheist, I too believe that there are no invisible and all-powerful genies in the sky. No wishes or prayers ever gain results if you don't put in some work to make them possible. Basic principles of science are changing even now in light of quantum/snare theories, but I believe we should stick to these basic principles when trying to make something work. You cannot make something out of nothing. Religion is often not rational enough in that case.

[ninurta2008]

Neither. It was initially to appease the gods and not bring down their wrath. Then it became for some a means to go to heaven and not hell. Now, for modern pagans, its to connect with their deities.

[plumedsnake]

Originally Posted by memnoch

I'm not sure there is a comparison on that end. However when one chooses to follow a religion they are basing their views on one or more leaders controlling their choices in action, leading them to believe it is a greater good, and causing them to kill (in extreme circumstances, but certainly exile, ignore, and ridicule) any non believer. How is this any different than the Nazi's, Chairman Mao's China, Fascist Italy, and other dictatorships?

it seems as if you definition of religion is a very narrow one that only involves organised political structures. By your definition hermits can't be religious.
Any organised political structure can caused their members " to kill (in extreme circumstances, but certainly exile, ignore, and ridicule) any non believer." I can also think of the US exporting democracy and killing Iraqi babies. The Bush administration controlled the choices in action of the whole US citizenry, and caused them to kill.

To point solely at religion is rather superficial in my opinion. What you should be addressing is the tendency for humans to organise themselves around an ideal and strive towards that ideal. This is a double edged sword. It's got it's pros and it's cons.

There is more to religion than this tendency to organize a group of people around an ideal, or set of ideals. Some aspects of religion actually work to counteract such tendencies.